Thursday, August 21, 2008


I'm curious... if abortion was made illegal, what would that mean?

What do you do with mothers who abort?
Assisting Nurses?

Are we under the impression that making it illegal would be the end of the fight or the beginning of a harder one?

Can one be pro-life and not be shouting to make it illegal? I have no problem with overturning the bad law of Roe Vs. Wade (which wouldn't instantly criminalize it; it would be up to each state to pass legislation prohibiting it).

The pro-life argument will never be won in court; it's people like Allura who are truly fighting the abortionists, one soul at a time. Legislation might make it even harder to save the lives of babies.

Or am I missing it? Your thoughts?


LeeMac said...

My thought is: Your absolutely right.

sherlock said...

Well, you can't really be missing it because you didn't really state any of your opinions. Which means you cant be absolutely right. So i'm not taking the easy way out like... certain people. ;-)

Ahem Ahem Ahem...
It depends. I can have a certain amount of empathy for young mothers who are desperate and at the end of their rope blah blah blah. But mothers who simply don't feel like having a baby because it's inconvienent or too expensive I have no empathy for at all. Here's the deal. To be blunt: if you don't want to have a baby, don't go through the actions that might make you pregnant. It's that simple. The problem lies in the fact that abortion minded mothers are told their victims, nevermind the victimization of the babies they kill.

Doctors who perform abortions know exactly what they are doing. They lie to patients all the time about how human the baby really is, etc. etc. Often they rush through the process. The "process" is this (at least it was circa 199-something) Doctors perform an abortion, whether it's the vacuum of death or injection of doom. Then the doctor grabs a little ticket and puts the stub in a box. He gets paid for every ticket stub. Doctors often hurry through abortions because of this, and there are a lot of abortion related deaths that don't go noticed or documented.

All right, I'm out of breath. I'll wait till i'm done with algebra to come up with the rest.

Rob Swanson said...

Looking forward to the rest, Josiah.

But might your empathy reach through to the idea that many of the woman who consider "convenience-abortions" are deluded by the culture they live in?

sherlock said...

Naivete is just ignorance called innocence. So no. Just because society makes it "ok" to do something wrong doesn't give anyone reason to do it. So no. No empathy points for buying into the culture here.

The rest would simply be that any steps made to stop abortions would be a good thing. Your average ... uh... Joe.... wouldn't get an abortion if it was illegal.

Another problem is that women don't see any viable alternative to abortion. The adoption system needs to be simplified and fixed so that adoption is an easier process (for safe families that will be good for kids, i'm not saying that anyone should be allowed to adopt).

I have to go, so this is "the end" of my speel. If that's how you spell speel. Hahahha, spell speel....

Rob said...

I really would like more comments on this before I jump in with my opinions. Though I do question whether the average Josie would be deterred by a law, at least not the hard-hearted people you have no empathy with.

I'd guess that a large proportion of women and girls getting abortions are actually terrified, not unfeeling. Being trapped, even by your own actions, can lead to desperation.

And you didn't answer the first part. What do you do with women, doctors, advisors, and nurses if they broke such a law?

-Phyllis+ said...

If abortion became illegal then wouldn't they be considered/convicted as murderers?

Rob said...

I would think each participant would have to be considered individually.

So are you thinking jail time for the mother? I struggle with that thought (not so much doctors, mind you).

damaris said...

i think you can try to legislate morality but i don't think it will neccessarily work. right now i have such a nasty head cold that i can hardly think straight so that's the only opinion i'll can submit right now. i'd have to think too hard.

sherlock (again) his opinion (again) flawed (again) said...

Since abortion goes above normal everyday "moralitys" that you can't really illegalize (e.g drinking in excess, the obvious thing that I can't say with ben on the blog) you can make it illegal.

I think it should be made illegal, simply based on the fact that it is killing a human being, since it falls in the murder category it's pretty easy to illegalize-iffy whatever.

I think your missing what I'm saying about "empathy". Most abortion-minded mothers are scared to death of abortion. Making it illegal makes it more scary. If you bring in less scary options, like adoption (which is currently screwed but can be fixed) or simply not getting pregnant they look a lot better than breaking the law to get the baby killed.

Doctors who are performing abortions outside of the law should get fined/jail timed. Nurses should be fined. All those little secratarys and "counselers" that make sure girls don't run out before getting a chop-chop done, should be fined as well.

Something interesting I heard. A woman who went through both a pregnancy and an abortion said that the abortion was a worse kind of pain than birth. I'm not sure if that's a true story, just something I read in an article or book or mag somewhere.

Rob said...

Interesting. You left out what would be done to the mothers.

Is it worth discussing passing laws that would go largely unfollowed? Prohibition didn't work; we discovered taking away soemthing we've had access to doesn't work.

Would you think that the alternatives to abortion have to be better developed before it could be outlawed? Do you project that child abuse would increase, and dead mothers from botched illegal abortions would increase?

Thorny problem, isn't it?

LeeMac said...

WOW! that's a lot of comment's for your blog, dad.

Rob said...

No kidding, Ben. I always wonder if anyone actually reads my blog...

I think this topic underscores a serious problem this country has. Because TV, and to a lesser extent radio, is sound-byte driven, there's no room for discussion of complex topics.

Abortion cannot be discussed in 10 second bursts. Very little of substance can be covered on TV, yet that's our major source of information.

About the only way I can put my views into a single sentence (plagerizing myself from an e-mail exchange)... The pro-life movement needs to put more effort into making abortion unnecessary instead of illegal.

Anonymous said...

(plagerizing myself from an e-mail exchange)...Isn't that just repeating yourself?---

On topic though, Any person involved in a pre meditated plan to kill or attempt to kill another person is held responsible when their intended victim is outside the womb. It should be no different for those who would plot to kill the ones inside the womb. Including those secretary or "counselors". Ignorance is no excuse for the law.

LeeMac said...

I agree with you 'nonymous.

Rob said...

I don't agree.

When we allow the argument to decend to force, we've already lost. I think the Old Testament taught us that where the law fails, grace triumphs.

The argument must be at the heart level; not us saying "you can't" but rather helping them see "you don't want to." Righteousness comes from grace within, not the law without.

Build up the better alternatives. Like Josiah said, make adoption easier, and make care for the mother more available. Let's make having the baby more attractive than aborting it.

Right now, women willing to abort see the pro-life movement as condemnatory, not because they are (I think Allura and those who stand with her are the most outstanding examples of compassion I've ever heard of. When the women at the clinic see them, they see the image of legislative-minded pro-lifers and feel a finger pointing at them despite Allura's open hand).

Mattea K. said...

I think that abortion SHOULD be made illegal. I also think that before it could be made illegal, the alternative thing (such as adoption, foster care etc) would have to be made easier--and safer at the same time (unfortunetely easier usually means more careless on the rules).

I'm not sure if you discussed this before (the comments got kind of long :) but when it comes to prosacuting the mothers, don't you think it should depend on wether they are married or not? That weighs into it a lot. Married, you have no right to abort. Unmarried you still (obviously) have no right, but it can be....shall I say justified? (not that it could EVER be justifed....its the only word I can think of). Especially if you are young? I think the "fine" or whatever it would be should be lesser for the young. (Just wondering, is there currently an age limit on abortions?).

The real problem is we live in a....well, heathen socioty so unless you have good christian leaders nothing will ever be right. It does look like McCain has a good stance on that. And his VP. But then so does Bush and look what has been done. Nothing.

Yes grace always triumphs but most of the people getting abortions don't realize the grace they've been given unless they make a 180 turn. That grace is only going to help them if they believe in it, and turn from thier ways. So if you had a christian government they would try to help you see that. And if you didn't, you'd have to face the consequences.

So yeah those are just some thoughts from my swirling head. I am, by the way, a friend of Josiah's, incase you wondered.

Rob said...

No worries, Mattea, I'm familiar with you from the great one's blog.

You can't discriminate between married and unmarried women (except when it comes to taxes, but that's another evil matter entirely). For the life of me, I can't think of any sort of just penalty for mothers who abort. A fine would just be an additional fee. Jail time is just wrong.

When I ask "what would Jesus do?" I don't answer "make it illegal." I just get "love her with grace and encourage her to repentance."

LeeMac said...

That's another good stand point that can't be proved wrong.

mattea said...

Ben, he's your Dad. Of course you agree with him., actually, I think I get what you are saying. And I agree too. Are you saying the ones who get punished should be the doctors then? And maybe the un-mothers would be sent to a mandatory "a person is a person no matter how small" class. :)

LeeMac said...

uh, no, not really mattea. I'm saying that it's true that there is no real punishment for mothers who abort, or, I should say non-mothers.

?the great one? said...

Just for fun, I want to say: I don't agree.

Hehehe, "i'm such a renegade".

Seriously though. I am all talked out on the issue. So I think it's time for a new post, because if I'm talked out, its a sign that the world will soon end.

LeeMac said...

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Hmmmmm. That sounds like on the fence Joe!